Today, on Facebook, a friend declared that Brett Favre isn't one of the top ten quarterbacks of all time. Naturally, riots ensued, but I supported the claim and came up with my own top ten list. This did involve some research at Pro-FootballReference.com, and I think there are two guys who could make this list depending on one's sense of how the game has changed or hasn't changed, and what makes a good passer: Steve Young and Tom Brady. Young didn't do it long enough, and, well, after seeing how Brady lobbied for a b.s. late hit this weekend, I feel justified in not adding little Tommy to the list.
1. Marino
2. Montana
3. P. Manning
4. Tarkenton
5. Otto Graham
6. Bart Starr
7. Elway
8. Moon
9. Unitas
10. Staubach
Total TDs doesn't do it, yardage doesn't do it, nor does winning rings alone. I won't bore you with the evidence.
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Here I hope to explore many of the things that interest me, from politics, rhetoric, pedagogy, film, and literature, to life in general along the Cascade Range—baseball, seafood, and the stray cat that sleeps on my car. (Or: An experiment in the new public sphere my learned friends tell me all about.)
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5 comments:
Nice post, Travis. Of course I already knew who you'd have slotted number one.
My problem with Marino is that he never won a Super Bowl. Yes, it's an old and tired criticism, but the best QB of all time plus one of the best coaches of all time (Shula) would have won a Super Bowl for Miami. Without a ring, he has to settle for placement between comparable QBs who won rings (Elway, Young, Montana) and comparable QBs who also did not win rings (Moon, Fouts, Tarkenton)
I like this list: http://www.pro-football-reference.com/blog/?p=547
Notice the notes on Marino and Montana. If you factor in how immobile Marino was, his raw stats drop him to the bottom of the top 10. Montana played in a less pass-happy system, had 2 of his 3 finest statistical season before Rice, won 4 Super Bowls and was best when it mattered most.
Montana was the 5th regular season QB of all time, but the best QB of all time when you factor in his championships. Marino was the greatest fantasy quarterback of all time.
I'm just gonna list guys from the last 30 yrs because I don't know enough abt NFL history to combat my fixed historical perspective.
1. Joe Montana (I feel like this is an easy call.)
2. John Elway (no one did more with less until he finally got Terrell Davis and did what he should have done much earlier with more resources)
3. Peyton Manning
4. Steve Young
5. Tom Brady
6. Dan Marino
7. Brett Favre
8. Dan Fouts
9. Warren Moon
10. Kurt Warner
Thanks for weighing in with a list, Peter. I thought about putting Fouts on my list, and probably should have had him in there over Graham or Moon. I like the list you sent from pro-football reference, too, especially since they put Marino at the top. :)
I hear ya about the ring, I really do. And you probably know my response, right? Mark Rypien won a Super Bowl and the MVP (good QB for his time, sure), Trent Dilfer won a ring, etc. As great as Shula was, he was never able to establish a running game for a Marino-driven offense. Never a decent back even, really. Oh Ricky, you came along too late, my man. Shula's best years were pre-Marino.
Hmm, the more I look at the link you sent, the more certain I am about Marino being #1. "Two, for all the talk about Marino, his ability to avoid sacks rarely seems to come up in conversation. That's unfortunate." But as they said, for haters, or people who might rank him 6th, ha, it's possible to ignore his ability to avoid sacks. He didn't gain many rushing yards, but he was excellent at preserving yards and field position.
So if Marino had won a ring, or two, would he be the unanimous #1? Seems that way.
I take back what I said about replacing Graham, ha.
Whoa, I totally misread the article I used for a source on my own post! Marino's stats IMPROVE if you factor in his ability to avoid sacks.
I guess that just makes it obvious that I was looking for a reason to rank him low just to give you a hard time.
Re: the ring... Yes, Dilfer, Rypien, Hostetler, Doug Williams--they all won rings. I agree that it reinforces that football is a team game, and the glorification of skill positions in football is incredibly warped.
But then what are your criteria for this list? In your post you just list the criteria that aren't sufficient.
Sorry that I didn't get back to you earlier about this, Dub. My criteria were, well, not exact. I reviewed their statistics and took into consideration what I've actually seen from them and what I know about the teams they've been on. This eliminated a few people like Tom Brady -- when Matt Cassell can come in and win, what, 11 games? You're not as valuable as some people say, you know? This was convenient because I do not like Tom Brady. :)
I had to look at what I knew about the length of a player's career, too, which brought in Otto Graham and Roger Staubach, whose careers were shorter than they might have been.
Elway, for example, didn't always do a whole lot statistically when he didn't have a running game. Some years, yes, he did do a lot in spite of a weak ground game, but not as consistently as Marino.
The more I think about my list, I might actually want to move Montana to 5th, moving Manning to 2, followed by Tark and Graham. I tried (although maybe did not succeed entirely) to think about the time periods these guys are playing in. Someone may move Manning down, in that case, so again, my logic has plenty of holes and biases.
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